GT / WIND uprated brakes

[oscar]

so i got a little bored today and decided to look into what options were available going by parts dimensions and extended parts codes. after a lot of research i've come to the conclusion that the williams brake set up is the same as the GT / WIND GT. this means that you can bolt straight on uprated racing calipers, as well as vastly uprated pads such as Carbone Lorraine RC5 / Ferodo Racing DS2500 / Ferodo DS3000's. you could go for williams big 4 pot calipers if you wish, there are kits available but when the williams was 150bhp and the GT being 100bhp stock it clearly shows that bigger 4 pot conversions are not required.

so i think i'm going to go with some OMP Group N disc's or brembo max's & DS2500's. do you guys have any experience in any other cars using those pads?? i know that the carbone lorraine rc5's are harsh and bite like a cannibal, not to fun on a wet motorway i'll bet!

ps guys this upgrade is down to having track days in mind for 2014, not for day to day pads. you crazy lol

 

[singlespeed]

DS2500 aren't really a track pad. There fine for fast road, but too much heat will end up with them coating the disc and the pad falling apart. The ones in the Dini are only the second set I've tried and they haven't had a lot of abuse. The ones in my old Cinq Sporting fell apart, but they did take a hammering, running A008 rubber and I wasn't half as sensible back then :? DS3000 are meant to be more track oriented but I havent tried them

Ones I've tried...
Mintex 1144 are another fast road pad which can take light track use:- In the Westy, Astra Belmont running GTE suspension, brakes and suspension with 160hp, Audi A3 1.9Tdi with remap
Miintex 1155 are a decent track pad, but still progressive enough for day to day use:- Astra Belmont running GTE suspension, brakes and suspension with 160hp
Pagid RS4-2 Blue. OK as a fast road pad, but expensive and not suited to a proper hammering:- Partly modded A3 with standard VW calippers
Pagid RS14 Black. Good, but expensive and eat a set of discs or two:- Audi A3 fully modded with big brake conversion and Boxter S calippers

 

[singlespeed]

The Wind 1.2 Tce100 has the same suspension/brake setup as the Wind 1.6, sharing that from the RS133.

 

[oscar]

see the only reason i've went over to the ds2500's is that a lot of the driftland cars & CS.net track guys seem to swear by the ds2500's for track and fast road use. even the ferodo site says that they are good for track days, frictional co-efficient's and temperature ranges seem about right 0.41 FCE / 20°-500°C WR .. wheras the ds3000's are more raw track use and i think ds3000's would be overkill for a little twingo being tracked don't you think? especially when the ds3000's are 0.48 FCE / 200°-650°C WR. would certainly struggle to see those sorts of temperatures as i wouldn't be giving it the beans on track, i'll only be going out for fun! no risks taken lol.
to convert the rears to discs or not? waste of money as it won't increase rear braking force, but will look pretty. very limited on shoe selection mind you lol. i suppose the conversion to rear discs would eliminate such a crap choice in brake shoes although the handbrake situation will be an interesting weekend of fiddling around



i'm going to order these up at the end of january and i'll show you all pictures on fitment. hopefully the dimensions etc were all correct and they fit! 50/50 on the rear conversion though, but williams pads & discs are a definate

 

[singlespeed]

I trashed a set of DS2500 on the Fiat, and that only had ~54hp and weighed as much as a bag of crisps :lol: So, if you don't allow them to cool then they will probably fall apart at some point. If you don't keep pushing lap after lap and killing every corner, they will probably be fine with a couple of laps then a rest. Ideal fast road and track day pad for some, certainly not up to the job for other people.

The RS14 pads have a working temp of 400-700'c and max 800'c. I turned my discs slightly blue and the ABS sensor gave up, but the pads still survived. The cold friction was fine and actually very good compared to a standard pad... The draw back with the track pads is squealing and dust. Oh and price


You may need to mess about with master cylinder sizes if swapping the rears from drums to calipers, as I'm sure the piston areas will be different :? For how much braking effort the rears do, is it worth while?? 133 rear hubs and brakes would bolt on, adding a fair amount of width to the track, especially if you kept the GT wheel offset. Theres pics somewhere here of mine and Karens rear hubs

 

[oscar]

The Wind 1.2 Tce100 has the same suspension/brake setup as the Wind 1.6, sharing that from the RS133.

you're right actually, that was an assumption gone wrong not to self, stop second guessing! suppose an interesting note will be that wind's can then use clio 172 uprated discs and 133 pads as 133 / 172's use the same discs but the calipers are different from memory. you know i've never actually worked on a wind? so rare!

that's a good idea on the rear hubs actually neil, it would mean that the handbrake situation could be easily sorted out and at worst case scenario i could just get the handbrake cable for the 133 instead of tinkering deffinately is overkill but anything's better than drum brakes lurking behind your alloys :/

 

[singlespeed]

Your GT has 54mm front caliper pistons, the same as a Clio 1*2. The RS133 has 57mm front calipers from a Laguna and the rears are Megane. Maybe the RS133 rear calipers also have a larger bore than the Clio?.
Edit - Now unsure of the GT having 54mm, probably 48mm, as per posts below

Thinking now, the Twingo rear axle is the same shape/size as the clio, so Clio hubs/discs could be a better option as the piston sizes will probably work out better if you can swap to a 1*2 master cylinder? I don't know how long the clio hub/bearing is compared to the 133?


Changing calipers or disc size can give some interesting results when the ABS or stability programs kick in. The Audi was lethal with ASC switched on as it applied what it though was a gentle amount of brake force to save a slight slip. Needless to say the resulting grab nearly spat you off the road :shock: not

 

[oscar]

don't gt's come with 48mm caliper pistons neil? you've thrown a spanner in the works with the clio rear hub. god my head hurts, i mean when you mentioned the clio hubs etc i just thought why not get the entire clio rear axle and give me better rear handling with the thicker torsion bar but that would lead to more problems with the ABS like you said. do you not just hate modern cars sometimes? every things bloody electronically governed lol. you'd think you could just open the ABS ecu up and recalibrate it to work with new sized dimensions but you'd need a standalone ECU for that.

how about the williams rear discs that come with the hubs? old school! some research will need to be done on that front, if it's the same brake set up as the GT in terms of fronts then i don't see why the rears would be much different in terms of the ABS and dimensions. thinking this hard doesn't do much for you when you're trying to quit smoking

 

[oscar]

quick update, just had a quick browse, it would appear it has 26 abs teeth on the rear. so i'll need to look into how many teeth the GT has, so that should the rear axel or just hubs alone be replaced if GT currently has 26 teeth then that'll be somewhat of a relief. but i was also thinking that with the williams wheels if i can track them down, drums wouldn't be so bad as they'd be mostly covered up or at least not instantly noticeable and if i were to opt for some uprated mintex shoe that should be fine.

 

[singlespeed]

Caliper piston sizes.
Twingo GT- front 54mm diameter front 48mm diameter / rear drum cylinder 19mm diameter
Clio 172 - Front 54mm diameter / Rear 30mm diameter caliper
RS133 - Front 57mm diameter / Rear 34mm diameter caliper
Megane II - Front 54mm diameter / Rear 34mm diameter caliper
Laguna II - Front 57mm diameter / Rear 38mm diameter caliper

Master cylinder bores https://www.rexbo.eu/search?q=master+cylinder&at=42324
Twingo GT - 20.64mm two port
Clio 172/182 - maybe 22.2mm or 20.6mm :? (two sizes listed)
RS133 not shown
MegII - 23.8mm two port.
Laguna II - 23.8mm two port

If those figures are correct, I'd definitely stay away from 133 rears as you will probably run out of peddle travel if your trying to push a much larger piston, or have a very lively rear end with the back locking up

 

[singlespeed]

don't gt's come with 48mm caliper pistons neil? (

48mm on 1.2 16V non turbo, so Dynamique.

Not that I've measured them, thats just catalogue sizes from the likes of BrakesInt and the Rexbo one linked to above

 

[oscar]

https://www.rexbo.eu/bosch/brake-caliper-986473677?c=100807&at=42324
https://www.rexbo.eu/trw/brake-caliper-bhv157e?c=100807&at=4446
https://www.rexbo.eu/bosch/brake-caliper-986473677?c=100807&at=38999
look at that though, i've got to admit i'm absolutely lost. all says 48mm and are all the same even on eurocarparts etc for the 1.2 TCE 100 twingo's. so that's a deffinate confirmation that the same brake set up is used on the clio williams / GT / 1.2 16v twingo fronts surely!? do you have a link where it says 54mm piston diameter?? got to admit i'm a bit lost as to where you're getting that from lol

https://www.rexbo.eu/ate/master-cylinder-brakes-3212020313?c=100026&at=4446 now this is interesting, 20.64 master cylinder piston diameter but lengths etc are different which adds to the effect of shifting brake bias and feel as the piston will travel further but i suppose i could have master cylinders made although i'd need to get a brake specialist to figure out what i'd need after a conversion. i remember doing brake bias calculations, and in my mind you'd be quicker trying to figure out how to make a tesla coil (that ones for you neil!)

 

[singlespeed]

We did find a catalog with 54mm mentioned for the GT, although, that was a while ago I remembered it because it was the same as the Clio. It was probably the www.brakesint.co.uk website catalog as the pictures and description are usually good, so thats normally a first stop. although the computers here don't have flashplayer on them, so I can't get on there to confirm or see if its now showing 48/54mm.

However, your right, other catalogs now all show 48mm, so your probably right now, with 48mm fronts

 

[oscar]

think i'll concentrate on uprating the pads and discs first i recon and then start to worry about dealing with the backs because it's clear that it shall be a nut ache!
i've to do a major service on my car on wednesday. spark plugs / oil change / transmission fluid / air filter clean / oil filter / coolant flush & change / brake bleed and refill with ATE super blue / thermostat / fuel filter / pollen filter / alternator belt. I'll be trying out lucas oil for the first time, hopefully i don't regret it. i usually use petronas, make a point of avoiding elf as that's all recycled junk like the halfords own brand stuff.. but i didn't tell you guys that

 

[LC]

Let me know how you get on with this oscar I'm sure my brakes are not standard as they are pretty sharp already but the disks a bit rusted and I want to put some uprated sets on

 

[oscar]

i'll be ordering them next week LC, discs and pads for now from the williams as they are better options for the williams being an older and proven car. next week is pay day after all lol

 

[LC]

How much do they cost approx and are they just standard discs or are they vented?

 

[oscar]

How much do they cost approx and are they just standard discs or are they vented?

you can use both LC, going on paper at least. but let's wait and see if it will work in the real world first. although you're more than welcome to get some ordered up to see if they fit (it will be no different than fitting new discs and pads. no cutting or chopping or anything silly haha)

 

[oscar]

LC - i forgot to mention, the rear brake shoes will be fine. i asked one of the boys i know who goes to knockhill racing circuit alot and he said for the size of the car, the rear shoes will be fine as long as you get the best shoes you can. so look into some mintex rear shoes as the back brakes only do about 25% of the braking at most, the fronts do about 50-58% of the braking

 

[Martin_172]

twingo GT runs 259mm front discs and uses the same calipers as all non RS clios which as you said is the same setup the clio Williams used

if you want to change callipers your best bet is fiat coupe brembos, they use the same bolt spacing as non RS calliipers so bolt straight onto a non RS twingo, you then run 280mm clio 172 front discs. all that's needed is washers between the caliper and hub to space it out slightly the messurements are on cliosport.

personally im running the stock setup with brembo HC discs and Mintex M1144 pads, braded lines and superblue fluid and even as a backroad thrasher I cant see any reason to go for any sort of upgrade from this setup, it cost me under £200 and its epic!