Madeno could make a series of bigger brakes with 4-pot!

[1975DCS]

I just asked Madeno about their brakes listed on their Twingo TMR200. I thought it was running Brembo calipers from a Clio 197/200 on special made discs, but it seem that is not quite the case. They answered it is a special modified competition set up, so probably more racing related. Anyway they also answered that they could make a Brembo 4-pot upgrade kit for the Twingo RS if there is a demand for this. I am not sure if this means using the standard 280 mm discs, or something bigger. Let's face it, if you are going Brembo 4-pot, you do want some nice big discs to fill the 17" RS wheels, so 295 mm - 330 mm would be nice, even if you don't need that big. Even though I am not in the market right now, I did asked them what the price would be and what kind of disc they are looking at. I also asked them if I could put that info on this site, to find out how much demand their would be... I'll keep you posted!

 

[madmatt]

It was something I was looking at until wanted smaller wheels.

There's an Espace that uses a 300mm disc in 4 x 100 with the right offset and face sizes, I was looking into it as I have a set of Wilwood 4 Pots that need using

Still waiting for my dad to get the brackets off AP Racing for the Brakes on the Clio 172, so I can give people a definitive YES or NO, to whether Clio 2 Brake kits fit the RS Twingo.

 

[1975DCS]

Interesting... Does the Espace have bigger calipers as well? Could be an easy swap (if you use the Espace calipers)? It's like what they do with Corsa's, 240, 256, 280, 300 and they all seem to fit...

 

[singlespeed]

if you want the discs to fill the wheels, the sencible option would be to get 15" wheels.

325mm discs with brembo radial calipers would probably fit in 17” wheels, if you found some with a usable piston size and pad swept area to cover the disc. But the combination would be adding a lot of unsprung weight and would kill the brake balance and handling.

Prices for discs over 300mm start to become silly

 

[TURBO]

if you want the discs to fill the wheels, the sencible option would be to get 15" wheels.

325mm discs with brembo radial calipers would probably fit in 17” wheels, if you found some with a usable piston size and pad swept area to cover the disc. But the combination would be adding a lot of unsprung weight and would kill the brake balance and handling.

Prices for discs over 300mm start to become silly

+1

do you really need uprated brakes??would it not be better to drop the wheel size to 15"
(reduce rolling weight and poss improve handling) get some sticky tyres

and then keep the brakes the same size but upgrade your pad/disc/hoses/fluid and fit some ducting ??

 

[1975DCS]

Yes, but fitting 15" is the wrong way to fill the wheels... I agree on the weight and it is probably overkill and the brake balance may need to be adjusted. But even on low speed Rally events and low weigt Super 1600's you will find masssive front brakes (and small rear brakes). Ok that's not road... Advantage over disadvantage... A higher profile tyre will probably improve the handling not just on 15" but also on other sizes, but with the same overall diameter are those wheel/tyre combination really be that much lower in weight? I think that a slightly higher profile and a slight increase in diameter would be better. Like 205/45 R16.

This pictures shows my ex Cossie with 315 mm brakes (that could fit under some 16") under 17":

 

[madmatt]

Yes, but fitting 15" is the wrong way to fill the wheels...

I'm tempted to argue this actually. A smaller, more lighter wheel would make a more positive difference to unsprung weight. Combined with the side effect of a higher profile tyre and giving a better (read cheaper) tyre choice.

But even on low speed Rally events and low weigt Super 1600's you will find masssive front brakes (and small rear brakes). Ok that's not road... Advantage over disadvantage...

Super 1600 cars have massively tuned engines, even when compared to todays R2 Spec. Cars, so need the Massive front brakes and usually incorporate major braking changes: Pedalbox, Mastercylinders etc.

...with the same overall diameter are those wheel/tyre combination really be that much lower in weight? I think that a slightly higher profile and a slight increase in diameter would be better. Like 205/45 R16.

Yes and effective switch to go to a 205/45 profile tyre on a 16" rim would be the best of both worlds, but given the weight in a RS133 Cup wheel compared to an aftermarket PERFORMANCE/MOTORSPORT rim of the the same size, anything would be better.
Going down to a 15 with Motorsport/Performance wheels and High Performance Tyres offers a great weight saving.

This pictures shows my ex Cossie with 315 mm brakes (that could fit under some 16") under 17":

AND, with all due respect...the Twingo 133 (as you've already deduced) is not a Cossie in terms of Power and Mass, never really will be, so 315mm Brakes aren't really neccesary.
The right Disc and Pad combination can be much more effective than aftermarket calipers and oversized discs.

Size isn't everything - my dad runs an AP Racing 4 Pot kit with a 286mm disc on his Xzara VTS Road Rally Car and it stops on a penny AND fits 15" Speedlines.

 

[singlespeed]

ok, but the biggest improvement will be cosmetic. Imo

the r1 and r2, run 280. Yota has ducting to keep the cl pads cool on the ring and, is setting some respectable times.

My 133 stops better than my Audi that had 325mm and Porsche 997 calipers at the front, 280mm rears with pagid rs14 pads in the front and rs4-2 in the rear. The brake balance was completely ruinned and when the ESP kicked in, it was rather dangerous. Now running 312mm fronts and standard pads

 

[Matthias]

I think the only thing that perhaps needs changing are pads (optinally ducts if you are going for more racy pads). So which pads would be good for daily use and occasional trackdays? OMP? Ferodo? Cons and Pros?

 

[singlespeed]

A higher profile tyre will probably improve the handling not just on 15" but also on other sizes, but with the same overall diameter are those wheel/tyre combination really be that much lower in weight?

Even if a low profile/large rim, weighed the same as balloon tyre on a small rim, the small one would accelerate and change direction better, as it would have less inertia. The fact that the small rim and high profile ewigh less makes that even more apparent and also reduces unsprung weight

 

[weebob]

the r1 and r2, run 280. Yota has ducting to keep the cl pads cool on the ring and, is setting some respectable times.

With the times he is doing that setup is good enough for me.

 

[1975DCS]

Yes, but fitting 15" is the wrong way to fill the wheels...

I'm tempted to argue this actually. A smaller, more lighter wheel would make a more positive difference to unsprung weight. Combined with the side effect of a higher profile tyre and giving a better (read cheaper) tyre choice.

But even on low speed Rally events and low weigt Super 1600's you will find masssive front brakes (and small rear brakes). Ok that's not road... Advantage over disadvantage...

Super 1600 cars have massively tuned engines, even when compared to todays R2 Spec. Cars, so need the Massive front brakes and usually incorporate major braking changes: Pedalbox, Mastercylinders etc.

...with the same overall diameter are those wheel/tyre combination really be that much lower in weight? I think that a slightly higher profile and a slight increase in diameter would be better. Like 205/45 R16.

Yes and effective switch to go to a 205/45 profile tyre on a 16" rim would be the best of both worlds, but given the weight in a RS133 Cup wheel compared to an aftermarket PERFORMANCE/MOTORSPORT rim of the the same size, anything would be better.
Going down to a 15 with Motorsport/Performance wheels and High Performance Tyres offers a great weight saving.

This pictures shows my ex Cossie with 315 mm brakes (that could fit under some 16") under 17":

AND, with all due respect...the Twingo 133 (as you've already deduced) is not a Cossie in terms of Power and Mass, never really will be, so 315mm Brakes aren't really neccesary.
The right Disc and Pad combination can be much more effective than aftermarket calipers and oversized discs.

Size isn't everything - my dad runs an AP Racing 4 Pot kit with a 286mm disc on his Xzara VTS Road Rally Car and it stops on a penny AND fits 15" Speedlines.

Of course lower weight will of wheels and tyres will benefit the acceleration and deceleration and unsprung weight, but like brakes who really cares and notice it on a road? It is not a race car, not even close... Or are we taking corners at 100% attack mode? Well I like to keep it in one piece for now... Personally I would not change the road pads for anything more racy, these work better when warmer, but worse when cold. But your point is valid.

Are those AP's on the standard (size) discs?

 

[1975DCS]

If Madeno makes a kit, it will be with either 280 mm discs or 295 mm discs, so that will suit most people requirements regarding the weight? And I am pretty sure if the kit requires different cylinders, booster or brake bias Madeno will do so, they are not the kind of company selling you something if it ain't better than standard.

 

[singlespeed]

your last post almost contradicts your first, which gave the impresion you were looking to fit the largest discs possible. Hence the points made above, which were argued of looks vessus a probable downgrade in everyday performance.

As a point of noticing the weight on the road. There was a very cool looking Westfield with 17's, all stickered up in Red Bull colours. It was mainly a show car as that was the owners thing, not being bothered by the handling. The majority of Westys run 13's or the lightest 15's and, on the road could run rings around the one with 17's.



Now, if your keeping the same disc size, or slightly larger, what are you wanting to gain?

 

[1975DCS]

I just agree on the stuff that 15" is better for handling and weight, but 17" will make room for much bigger (and better) brakes. Even with same disc size 4-pots offers more clamping force... My taste would be bigger brakes, not lower weigth or improving the handling. That's why I don't want coilovers, have bad experience with them, while others swear... But stiffer is not always better on (bad) roads... There's more way than one!

 

[singlespeed]

Unless you also change the master cylinder, the clamping force will be the same... The total piston area must be the same (or very simillar), so four small pistons instead of one large one. Otherwise the peddle travel would be too long, which is basic hydraulic theory.

 

[1975DCS]

Of course, it is a delicate mix...

 

[singlespeed]

I know that big 4-pots look ace, but the biggest gains in performance would be better compounds, which may be avaliable for a popular 4-pot, or cooling...

The CL pads are about as extreme as you would want, so that leaves cooling ducts

 

[frediiii]

the 133 stock brakes don't suffer from missing clamping power. step on the brakes at 140mph and you can easily trigger the ESP... so enough clamping power to lock the wheels at top speed.

in fact, the 133 brake setups only drawback is consistency... just gets too hot on continuous hard braking.

 

[madmatt]

The only difference I could imagine a 4 pot would make over the OE Single pot caliper is a more evenly distributed braking force to the pad surface.
A lot of Billet Alloy Calipers offer weight reduction bonuses over traditional Cast Calipers as well.

In response to your initial question (now that I've checked), the Discs on the Xzara are OE Diameter although with Alloy Mounting Bells and a slightly increased thickness to improve cooling to the disc.

Regarding brake cooling, I can't imagine this would be too hard an issue to address especially on the passenger side (UK) with a resonator box deletion. I'll be addressing this once I sort my brakes