Big brakes Clio tce

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Oliver":101b46u8 said:
And don´t forget if you increase the the diameter - or better said area of the calliper-piston - you should also increase the diameter of the master brake cylinder, so that the pedal way stays the same...
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Not at all.....

One of the most common misconceptions is that a larger master cylinder will create more pressure. While a larger master cylinder creates a larger displacement, it takes more force to create the same pressure as a smaller bore. While a larger master cylinder will take up system slack with less pedal stroke, it will take more force to create the same system pressure. The result after adding the larger master cylinder is a harder pedal which needs much more pedal pressure to create the same amount of braking force. As an example, moving from a 3/4" master cylinder to a 1" requires 77.7% more force on the push rod.

The goal is to balance the entire system. Pedal force, system pressure and lever travel all need to be taken into account.

I have done before BIG BRAKES installation and used the stock master cylinder with no issues.

Regards
 
Mexicano":j476n3ir said:
Oliver":j476n3ir said:
And don´t forget if you increase the the diameter - or better said area of the calliper-piston - you should also increase the diameter of the master brake cylinder, so that the pedal way stays the same...
Click to expand...
Not at all.....

One of the most common misconceptions is that a larger master cylinder will create more pressure. While a larger master cylinder creates a larger displacement, it takes more force to create the same pressure as a smaller bore. While a larger master cylinder will take up system slack with less pedal stroke, it will take more force to create the same system pressure. The result after adding the larger master cylinder is a harder pedal which needs much more pedal pressure to create the same amount of braking force. As an example, moving from a 3/4" master cylinder to a 1" requires 77.7% more force on the push rod.

The goal is to balance the entire system. Pedal force, system pressure and lever travel all need to be taken into account.

I have done before BIG BRAKES installation and used the stock master cylinder with no issues.

Regards
Click to expand...
With respect.
If you increase the caliper piston area, you will potentialy generate more force on the disc. However, more fluid will need to be moved to push the piston(s) the same distance... Without increasing the master cylinder diameter, this will mean a longer travel of the brake peddle which isn't a serious problem for small changed but would be it your foot reaches the carpet before the pads reach the disc :?


The Hi-Spec Monster4 which has 2 x 38.6mm & 2 x 41.2mm pistons would be an ideal replacement for the RS Twingo which has a 57mm single piston. the difference being only a few mm^2. I dare say Hi-Spec could make some Billet4 calipers with the same pistons
 
singlespeed":3d9pfx2m said:
With respect.
If you increase the caliper piston area, you will potentialy generate more force on the disc. However, more fluid will need to be moved to push the piston(s) the same distance... Without increasing the master cylinder diameter, this will mean a longer travel of the brake peddle which isn't a serious problem for small changed but would be it your foot reaches the carpet before the pads reach the disc :?

The Hi-Spec Monster4 which has 2 x 38.6mm & 2 x 41.2mm pistons would be an ideal replacement for the RS Twingo which has a 57mm single piston. the difference being only a few mm^2. I dare say Hi-Spec could make some Billet4 calipers with the same pistons
Click to expand...

My Monster 6 pot calipers (slim style) has 4 pistons x 31.2mm & 2 pistons x 38.6mm, the Hi-Spec engineers said it wont be ANY issues with my stock master cylinder...let's see how it goes when they are installed.

Years ago I use to have an old 914/4 Porsche, I up-graded the brakes to 911 Carrera (BIG 6 pot calipers) and used the stock master cylinder, not issuesat all, even when the brake pads were worn too far.
 
It was only meant as a remark.

The main problem is - like singlespeed mentioned- that the pedal way may not be enough. This might become a real problem if the dics tend to buckling and so move the caliper piston more back than normal...

The dosing of the brake is also an important point and in the modern cars it´s also the question how sytems like ESP and ABS cope with such changes.

I have an old Mk.1 Clio and I combined calipers of the R18 Turbo that have 54mm diameter with brakets and discs of the normal Clio Williams that has normally only 48mm diameter. The master cylinder I changed from 20mm to 23.8mm.
 
Oliver":14jyxxrw said:
It was only meant as a remark.

The main problem is - like singlespeed mentioned- that the pedal way may not be enough. This might become a real problem if the dics tends tu buckling and so move the pistion more back than normal...

The dosing ot the brake is also an important point and in the modern cars it´s also the question how sytems like ESP and ABS cope with such changes.

I have an old Mk.1 Clio and I combined calipers of the R18 Turbo that have 54mm diameter with brakets and discs of the normal Clio Williams that has normally only 48mm diameter. The master cylinder I changed from 20mm to 23.8mm.
Click to expand...

Oliver,
Your quote is very interesting and helpful, as all others....since I can remember, there has been a HUGE debate when brake systems and combinations arise...let's keep this thread as It is very informative.

I'm courious, what kind of cylinder You used on Your MK1 Clio?...from which car?

Best Regards
 
Thanks Oliver,

I will research my OEM master cylinder bore & stroke, rear calipers bore, the pedal ratio and ask Hi-Spec Engineers to run a simulation and see how this goes...

This is what I was told by Hi-Spec when I ask about pedal travel and such things:

The pedal travel will be a little longer than standard, but this is a good thing. It allows far more control over the brakes and also gives increased pressure. If you increase the master cylinder size to have a short pedal you will decrease the pressure through the caliper. We recommend a 0.625” bore master cylinder for use with the front calipers when using a twin master cylinder set up.
 
I've not had time to research the big brake situation ATM, hi spec have had mixed reviews... See mlr, but yet they do make brakes bespoke for any car... And can personalise the colour etc.... I will probably use them if I'm honest, but power speed where my car is ATM also say they are very confident they can fit bigger brakes for me using the Renault range of cars to pick parts from.... Hispec is about £1k for a front set of 4pots fitted.

Interesting thread, not seen one like this before.
 
Westy. Is the Clio Tce a 54mm diameter front caliper piston? Therefore 2290mm^2 piston area

Clio 197/200 calipers look to have 4x 40mm pistons, therefore 2513mm^2 piston area.

Theres someone on CS trying Espace calipers on a clio (172?), which are a sliding twin pot with 40/45mm pistons, therefore 2847mm^2. These came with 300mm discs and may be a bolt on option worth looing into. Hwever, there doesn't look to be many pads freely avaliable, but it would give more force but require a longer push on the peddle... How long is the question!
 
A discussion about length seems to be needed, but i will say that it makes me a little uncomfortable discussing length.... Ladies what is your preference longer the better or do you prefer to stop with a short stroke?

The Haynes book of lies doesn't mention piston diameter, and I can't seem to find info online. The vtr had 266m 206 gti brakes on her under 14", and they were a squeeeeze!! And did have a slightly longer pedal with the standard mc.

It would be good for a supplier to put a package together but supply and demand I guess.... I would prefer 4pot hi spec or some AP anchors over larger Renault oe tbh.
 
get the abs ring dimensions, hub sizes and pcd sizes everything about your brakes. phone up a company who makes brake discs, give them the tech data for your current hub and what have you, tell them what size you want be it 300 290mm whatever. they'll sort you out :)
 
N0ddie":12iae5v5 said:
Matthias":12iae5v5 said:
Would these fit Twingo RS?

https://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=3604&appid=2
Click to expand...

You'd more than likely have to make brackets to mount the calliper onto the strut as the Twingo and Clio struts are different.

I'm sure Singlespeed has answered this question for me before.
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I'm not sure if the brackets would transfer across to the RS133. However, the Clio 172/182 has 54mm front caliper pistons. The RS133 has 57mm pistons, so you could end up with a very firm peddle with less travel and less feel... Although that depends on the piston area of the Willwoods.

K-tec have a 133 and its their kit. Ask them ;)
 
tw11ngo":1gkwqba2 said:
get the abs ring dimensions, hub sizes and pcd sizes everything about your brakes. phone up a company who makes brake discs, give them the tech data for your current hub and what have you, tell them what size you want be it 300 290mm whatever. they'll sort you out :)
Click to expand...

Or drive to hi spec, and drive home, drive back to hi spec have them fitted, drive home..... Simples...
 
sorry didnt have time to read the full thread so not sure if this is already mentioned but if they use the same setup as a mk2 NON RS clio (which i assume they do given they are both 259mm) then peugeot 406 coupe/fiat coupe turbo/mk1 Focus RS brembo callipers bolt straight on, all you need is a set of spacers made up to space them at the correct level around 15mm from memory.
Run them with a set of 280mm 172/182 front discs and daaa daaaa!! cheap 4 pots!! (i beleive the cars mentioned above run 285mm or there abouts front discs but 280mm clio RS discs are fine and the correct PCD and centre bore, there is a bigger disc that fits from another manufacturer car but i cannot for the life of me remember what, its something weird like some old pugeot!

HOWEVER. that family of Brembo 4 pots, really arnt that great, they are miles away from the more modern single piece calipers fitted to the megane and clio RS but they fit easily and look good.

My personal choice would be standard calipers (or 172 setup if you want to go a bit bigger) just with a set of DS2500 pads, performance fluid, braded lines and Brembo HC discs, ran this on my 172s and a 259mm version on my 1.2 16v and had no issues at all on full day track days
 
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